1. Why not to use closed-protocol proprietary solution like Skype

Skype, with all it's surely nice features, uses closed protocol, so only official Skype client works with it, you cannot code yourself one, and it also implies that the Skype client is not open source, thus you cannot find out what it will do with your computer...
I refuse to run an application I don't trust on my computer...

Sure that later Skype protocol might be cracked and open source clients appear (it already was, in fact), but this is unreliable, because Skype corp. can change the protocol and we are back where we were. I wouldn't support this anyway for other reason - open protocols and communications are the way to go in my opinion, not proprietary.

2. Let's discuss our requirements and choose something

So we something for real-time communication (so no mailing list) with both text conferencing and private message support...
Also people must have option to see what was said when they were absent... (from now on I will refer to this feature as "off-line logs")
I recommend we use something that is established and has multi-protocol clients, because no one wants to run more applications then he needs to...

I did a small research and found 3 open protocols which are somewhat in usable state:
IRC, XMPP (Jabber) and PSYC.

PSYC isn't very well established, would require us to run our server, hasn't got many clients, but most importantly, as far as I know, hasn't got natively the off-line logs feature...
Basically it seems to me as better IRC but I don't see bright future for this project...

XMPP is well established, has lots of clients, even multi-protocol ones, but the conferencing is very clumsy...
It has feature that can send you X last said lines before you joined the room, but this feature is in control of the client so even if some client had the "off-line logs" feature, I doubt it would be multi-platform...

IRC is well established, has tons of clients, multi-protocol ones as well, is made for conferencing...
"off-line logs" feature isn't present, but could be implemented in 2 ways (I can think of):
a) someone who has server which is on-line 99% of the time makes a script which publicizes the his logs on a web server (IMHO the most realistic)
b) make irc bouncer/bot which publicizes the logs, monitors people joining and leaving the channel, when they join, it sends them a personal message containing link like: http://somwhere/daimoninirclogs?from=timestamp&to=timestamp (the best solution but I doubt anyone is going to code this)
c) use Dircproxy: http://dircproxy.securiweb.net/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
This would mean we would have to run this as public proxy which itself is a pretty bad idea...

The above doesn't consider the point of openness I mentioned before:


So what I mean by this is the openness of content (ie, the discussion) not technology (I, unsurprisingly, prefer open source but I'm not religious about it).

IOW, the problem with Skype vs IRC is that Skype discussions, including their much-vaunted history (more on this below), are only open to people previously invited. Whereas IRC discussions (but no history) are open to anyone who subscribes to that channel. When it comes to discussing an open source project it seems daft to choose a closed medium to do so.

There is also the fact that IRC is well-established as a live chat medium for open source projects. So people can just subscribe to many channels for all the projects they are interested in, and just run the one application. For example, I am subscribed to #daimonin, #gridarta, and #wesnoth.

By the same token, developers looking for a project will naturally look for an IRC channel -- if Daimonin is on Skype instead -- a closed, cliquey medium as I said -- we lose this source of new blood.

Also, Dai (obviously) has close links to CF and several CF dev-types subscribe to #daimonin (and #gridarta is also a meeting place for both flavours). If Dai moves to another medium, these links aren't going to follow.

So on history: I agree that it's unsatisfactory that IRC history isn't (easily) preserved and available to all, but Skype is not the answer to this problem.

First is the fact that Skype history is only available to invitees from the time of their invitation.

Second is the fact that Skype history is virtually useless anyway. (From memory) You have to wait for your client to open the entire history which takes ages if you've been in an active chat for more than a week, then you copy and paste the whole thing to a text editor to search (surely the Skype client has some sort of basic search function?), then you, most likely do a word search on some keyword (or perhaps -- not very likely -- you remember the date or something of the discussion you want).

So Skype history is rubbish. But then we already have the forum. The forum is open, maintains a permanent and complete history, has a decent search function, and discussions are categorised by board and topic (so you might not even need to search, just browse).

So substantial discussions and questions relating to the project from both Skype and IRC should be posted to the forum -- if no-one thinks it worthwhile to post them, presumably they were insubstantial so no loss.

Finally also, the forum both preserves its history and does so in a form that is 'updatable'. So if I have something worth adding to an 6 month-old discussion, I can necropost (which of course means I was able -- relatively easily usually -- to find the 6 month old conversation in the first place).

EDIT: Also IRC doesn't squeak at me every time anyone says anything.

On a factual note (without getting into Skype pros and cons)

Errrm... How about ctrl/F?

Nor does my Skype. I went into settings and turned that off.

One thing I do agree with: For permanent, open discussions, the forums are the simplest and best option.

Ah, cF hehe of course! But still, a simple wordsearch in a mass of text with no categorisation of individual discussions on separate topics sucks.

And yeah, the squeaking was more a joke. It's easy enough to disable (but AFAIK you can't get Skype to squeak at you when someone specifically addresses you, which IRC does do and that is useful if you're AFK but nearby or using multiple desktops or something). Also, Skype spams the bottom right hand corner of my screen on every message and often brings its stupid window to the top, stealing focus, on a new message -- can those things be turned off too?

yes, it's a matter of configuration....in notifications section select each option and uncheck display popup notification

I was sure some of you would like to discuss the 1st point of my post, but why I really made this thread is to discuss the 2nd point...

Either we don't want an official conferencing solution, keeping us in current scattered state, or we come up and agree on something...

IRC + forum (possibly in future + wiki and mindmeld for content devving though im not keen on that myself) is the only sensible way to go IMO, for the above reasons.

Skype (or <insert favourite messenger here>) is fine for people who like Skype, but Skype discussions are de facto unofficial. Of course preliminary discussions on Skype to thrash out ideas which are then officially proposed on IRC and (preferably) the forum works.

I think the best solution would to have a IRC-bot log each day's conversations in a hidden forum for devs/mapwizards, with each day's logs being in a separate topic, so people can read and comment, and discuss... etc.

Smacky, why not have IRC, forums and skype? Sure, *you* may not like it, but the rest of the team does like it and gets a lot more use out of it than they ever did on IRC. Yes, why not have the "official" discussions on IRC and the hash-out discussions on Skype or Forums (when real-time isn't needed)? Also, from what i can see, you dislike skype's logs for shortcomings that all logs have... so i don't see how you could be satisfied there ;-).

Anchakor: While i understand your point 1... i'm pretty sure skype isn't going to make your computer blow up. In fact, by installing linux you have more of a chance of making your computer burst into flames than by installing skype. See my point?

As to your second point: none of those options fulfill your/our requirements. However, i might point out that skype fulfills the two requirements that are... how should i put it... the only requirement that skype does not fulfil is one that was founded because of hardware limitations (one could argue that they don't want another window in their taskbar... and i agree. So put skype in the clock area ).

So, why not IRC/Forums/Skype?

Cheers,
Unislash

Well that's a bit glib -- for example, Michtoen, Polyveg, Gecko, Alderan, TPK, Anchakor, and L00natyk are 'team' members and also don't use/like it.


Well this is what I said, isn't it? [EDIT: I see why you think that's not what I said -- hm, let me try to clarify a bit: Skype is fine for those who want to use it. If it enables (a subset of) devs to get together and discuss areas of Dai's development, that's great. But because this is only a subset of devs (and not including Michtoen) these discussions cannot be final or binding. IRC has (IMO many) benefits for discussing an open source project over Skype -- discussed above -- but is not the place for big decisions either, partly because of it's incomplete dev membership and partly because of its lack of history. The forum has universal dev membership   (not all dev decisions/discussions need to/should go to the hidden devteam board -- this is open source after all and daimonin project is fine and public), preserves permanent history in a sane way, and is open to study/contribution/expansion by and of any future devteam.]

Except IRC should not be the place for official decisions (of any real weight, although inevitably certain decisions will be made there). The forums should. This is because the forums preserve discussions and obviously time constraints are much different and everyone can contribute, whereas only some of us use IRC and only some of us use Skype.

Sure, simply logging is a terrible way to preserve discussions -- no categorisation or organisation, searching sucks a lot.

As an FYI, windows will make your computer blow up before Linux will...  (the only time linux screws up, is because the user doesn't often know what hes doing- windows is just inherently buggy)

Anyway, I don't like skype.  I think we should avoid it.

Unislash:

I'm not afraid of Skype physically destroying my computer. What I am afraid of is, that proprietary applications like Skype can gather information from my computer, open any files they want and do whatever they want to with it, including sending over internet, without me knowing about it... this is especially problematic with applications which require network connection, like Skype, so you can't block them... For this reason I refuse to use Skype...

I don't know what do you mean by "hardware limitations", but Skype didn't fulfil the basic requirement for me to even consider it - protocol and software openness...


I have nothing against people still using Skype, even though I might consider it foolish, but if you are not IRC, you are missing opportunity to get help of us on IRC when solving some problems...

Anyway I agree that forums should be the communication solution for official decisions.

Go under "Options" in a Skype chat window for the search function. This also lets you view the entire chat history (whether it be a "group" or "private" chat), all the way back to the first time that you ever chatted with them.

The one thing that i haven't seen in Skype is something that GMail's chat function has: the ability to go "off the record" (e.g., to stop having the chat logged). That would come in handy in certain circumstances that I can think of ....

Boy, well if people absolutely refuse to use skype, then end of discussion. We will remain a fragmented team... some using skype, others using irc, most using forums, and many trying to hold a balance between it all--at least until someone develops a chat program that fulfills all of our astronomical needs...

Cheers,
Unislash

**Double Post**

So i did a rather extensive search and come up with two chat programs that are open source and seem to work well:

AJAX
and
MC2 Java Multicast Chat

I haven't looked much at MC2 because it doesn't seem to have as much resources. However, AJAX looks like it could be the one. It's got a nice interface, nice logging, is open source, has an active community (and, seemingly, developers), and will integrate into your web browser (i'm currently exploring the ability to run it separately from the web browser). I like it

Cheers,
Unislash